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Post by fallscity48 on Nov 7, 2017 15:54:39 GMT -5
Been wanting to do this project for awhile (especially the 1969 Dover winner) but curious if anyone has attempted it.
I've come across some heads that can be modified for the engine (& will be used for the King dirt car version).
References of the car are lacking to say the least (although the car is/was at Speedway Motors Museum of American Speed). Never seen any photos of the car with the lid off for details. Any help most appreciated.....THANKS MUCH!
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Post by illeagle10 on Nov 7, 2017 19:26:31 GMT -5
Chris might be the best to contact on this one. Chris had done a beautiful 69 Lotus/Offy back in 2010. You may want to check out his post on OW www.ebay.com/itm/182880153805?ul_noapp=true from back then. Chris can be reached here by PM at chris. I have been fascinated lately to find how many variations of the Lotus 56 chassis were used by Indy entrepreneurs after 1968. The 69 Parnelli/Ford was a copy of the Lotus chassis using a turo-charged Ford four cam engine. There are a couple of others out there. Jim |
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Post by fallscity48 on Nov 8, 2017 2:45:04 GMT -5
Chris might be the best to contact on this one. Chris had done a beautiful 69 Lotus/Offy back in 2010. You may want to check out his post on OW www.ebay.com/itm/182880153805?ul_noapp=true from back then. Chris can be reached here by PM at chris. I have been fascinated lately to find how many variations of the Lotus 56 chassis were used by Indy entrepreneurs after 1968. The 69 Parnelli/Ford was a copy of the Lotus chassis using a turo-charged Ford four cam engine. There are a couple of others out there. Jim Thanks Jim for pointing me the way to Chris' fantastic 1969 Art Pollard's Lotus 56/Offy thread. Spent a couple hours on that thread going thru his detailed work.
Your are correct as well on the variants of the Lotus 56 chassis. Granatelli's efforts for 1969 very staggering alone......#57 Carl Williams Gerhardt / Offy at Indy, #40 Art Pollard Lotus 56 / Offy at Indy, the 2 versions of the #20 Super Wedge Plymouth variant that was withdrawn at Indy (but raced later), the #57 Art Pollard Gerhardt/Plymouth (I'm wishing to build) plus #70 & #80 Graham Hill & Jochen Rindt slightly updated Lotus 64 / Ford DOHC that were withdrawn as well. Granatelli could have easily had 6 cars in the 1969 race. Also you can add the #8 Gary Bettenhausen Thermo King Gerhardt / Offy from 1969 as well.
As for a more easy build using the MPC Lotus STP Kit..... the #57 Carl Williams Gerhardt Offy from '69 Indy would be the less challenging.
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Post by Chris Hale on Nov 9, 2017 13:54:56 GMT -5
Fallscity48, I had lost some 40,000 research photos last year when my PC crashed , I had pic of the Gerhardt STP Plymouth with the top off, give me a few days and I will see if I can locate them again. Here is a link to my fotki with the Thermo-king Gerhardt off project I started based on the MPC Lotus 56 kit there are some pics that might help. The Lotus 56 and the Gerhardt had a unique layout because the center transfer case meant the engine block was installed backwards and the intake, heads , injection, exhaust were installed in the regular position.. so I had to figure it out and do a lot of engineering on it.. Feel free to use my fotki pics, on all cars for reference I set it up so members could go there and find what they needed. Read the book, "They Called Me Mr 500" about Granitelli, he had 4 cars lined up for the 69 race , he was to determined to win the 500 in what was to his last Hurrah !!! He was pissed at USAC because they basically out regulated the Turbine.. so he came prepared.. I will see if I can find what you need , like I said it may take a couple of days though.. Chris
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Post by fallscity48 on Nov 9, 2017 18:42:20 GMT -5
Chris, thanks so much! 1st of all, sorry to hear your loss of research photos. Being a "rivet counter" modeler, my references are key for my builds. A "top off" photo of the Gerhardt STP Plymouth would be huge. Getting more excited from the builds but need to locate so more references to make sure its correct.
I think I may do the #57 Carl Williams Gerhardt / Offy as well but need a left side & rear photo....still looking.
BTW, I did run across a few "on track" photos of the plus #70 & #80 Graham Hill & Jochen Rindt Lotus 64 / Ford DOHC. According to accounts, they both did only a few laps before Chapman withdrew they cars (supposedly because of an argument with Granatelli. Thanks so much for your help.
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Post by Chris Hale on Nov 11, 2017 9:21:15 GMT -5
I put together a small file (45 pics) on my Fotki, some are the car you want, in particular Granatelli looking over the bare tub, these were in a file that said they were from the roll out of the 56B Plymouth, and the last is the engine as installed with the Wings as run at Riverside)  ![]()  also a shot from Riverside,   ![]() and Granatelli looking at the engine on the dyno, too bad they didnt lower the camera in that shot  Granatelli had reportedly 4 actual Lotus 56B chassis , a half dozen Gerhardt replicas and a few actual Gerhardt Chassis, I read where the replicas were so close that there have been many restored as Lotus 56 B Turbines, in the end making more restored Turbines than actually existed in 1968.. also a few Super Wedge pics because they also used either the Lotus or Gerhardt chassis link public.fotki.com/pmodwrks/1969-56-plymouth/ these cars were very confusing and in fact Granatelli mentioned this in the book..I am looking for a specific shot that shows them lowering the engine into the chassis Chris |
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Post by Chris Hale on Nov 11, 2017 9:30:16 GMT -5
 had a clearer photo but as you can see it is the V-8 going in a Lotus 56b chassis.. |
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smbrm
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by smbrm on Nov 11, 2017 11:24:44 GMT -5
Hi Guys Sounds like a great project. Thought you might find this interesting as it covers a lot of ground on this topic with comments on many of the chassis used in 1969 by STP ar Indy. forums.autosport.com/topic/82248-1969-indy-500-three-chassis-questions/Included are comments from a first person participant in the Plymouth program. Interestingly in my own considerable research I have have only ever seen the "B" designation attached to the F1 version of the Lotus 56, it being different from the Indy Lotus 56 in several areas. As for 1969 chassis converted to non turbine engines, entry lists just refer to them as Lotus - "engine". There were several engine variants in 1969 Lotus(? 56.) chassis. I don't think I have ever seen mention of a Lotus model number associated with these entries. There seems to be considerable controversy over the number of original, repaired and cloned chassis that appear to be directly related to the Lotus 56 that were used in the 1969 season. My conclusion from my studying is the Gerhardt, although wedge shape, was a reasonably conventional rear engine/halibrand gearbox aluminum monocoque. Most of the reference photos I have seen for 1969 have either been with the Offy, or the Plymouth Weslake(STP car). Will be interesting to see the results of the project. Cheers Stephen |
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Post by fallscity48 on Nov 11, 2017 12:37:12 GMT -5
I put together a small file (45 pics) on my Fotki, some are the car you want, in particular Granatelli looking over the bare tub, these were in a file that said they were from the roll out of the 56B Plymouth, and the last is the engine as installed with the Wings as run at Riverside) ![]() also a shot from Riverside, ![]() and Granatelli looking at the engine on the dyno, too bad they didnt lower the camera in that shot Granatelli had reportedly 4 actual Lotus 56B chassis , a half dozen Gerhardt replicas and a few actual Gerhardt Chassis, I read where the replicas were so close that there have been many restored as Lotus 56 B Turbines, in the end making more restored Turbines than actually existed in 1968.. also a few Super Wedge pics because they also used either the Lotus or Gerhardt chassis link public.fotki.com/pmodwrks/1969-56-plymouth/ these cars were very confusing and in fact Granatelli mentioned this in the book..I am looking for a specific shot that shows them lowering the engine into the chassis Chris Great photos Chris, thanks much!! The 2nd photo is of the #40 George Follmer's Lotus Plymouth at Riverside in 1969. Oddly enough the team car Lotus of Sam Posey, I have never seen a photo. The 1st photo may very well be a photo of Posey from Riverside....IDK. The last couple are from the package that were taken by media at the Plymouth engine launch. On the Follmer Riverside photo, it shows the car using the "scaled down" aero package (a more conventional approach after the superwing design was scrubbed) that was tested at Indy before the car was withdrawn. Follmer's car encountered some damage to the nose in the race & was subbed with one of Posey's (see tape on number).
Man....with all the references of the 56/Plymouth, I may have to a Gerhardt/ Plymouth, a Gerhardt / Offy & now a Lotus/Pymouth (If I can find a way to Fab the nose) 
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Post by fallscity48 on Nov 11, 2017 12:39:59 GMT -5
Follmer's car encountered some damage to the nose in the race & was subbed with one of Posey's (see tape on number).  |
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Post by fallscity48 on Nov 11, 2017 12:45:27 GMT -5
had a clearer photo but as you can see it is the V-8 going in a Lotus 56b chassis.. Great Photo Chris......wished was larger....Thanks Much!
I have a photo of the Plymouth engine in Pollard's car at Indy without the Weslake heads (but I will have to email to anyone that would like it.)
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Post by fallscity48 on Nov 11, 2017 12:52:56 GMT -5
Hi Guys Sounds like a great project. Thought you might find this interesting as it covers a lot of ground on this topic with comments on many of the chassis used in 1969 by STP ar Indy. forums.autosport.com/topic/82248-1969-indy-500-three-chassis-questions/Included are comments from a first person participant in the Plymouth program. Interestingly in my own considerable research I have have only ever seen the "B" designation attached to the F1 version of the Lotus 56, it being different from the Indy Lotus 56 in several areas. As for 1969 chassis converted to non turbine engines, entry lists just refer to them as Lotus - "engine". There were several engine variants in 1969 Lotus(? 56.) chassis. I don't think I have ever seen mention of a Lotus model number associated with these entries. There seems to be considerable controversy over the number of original, repaired and cloned chassis that appear to be directly related to the Lotus 56 that were used in the 1969 season. My conclusion from my studying is the Gerhardt, although wedge shape, was a reasonably conventional rear engine/halibrand gearbox aluminum monocoque. Most of the reference photos I have seen for 1969 have either been with the Offy, or the Plymouth Weslake(STP car). Will be interesting to see the results of the project. Cheers Stephen Stephen, Great post......thanks much for the link...... I will check it out. BTW..... here's a photo of the Lotus 64 with Rindt before it was withdrawn.
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Post by Chris Hale on Nov 11, 2017 13:51:04 GMT -5
I sliced and diced the nose on the 56B to get the width and shape a bit better also note on the # 20 car pic and also on the #40 Offy pics they added vents or exits to the sides of the nose, I made those and added them including the scale Duct Tape the used top and bottom and on the Duck Tail rear body work too, many people though I had added so silver stripes but I matched the color and scaled down some actual Duct Tape foe accuracy ...
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Post by Chris Hale on Nov 11, 2017 13:56:14 GMT -5
  irst is the Plymouth version and then the Weslake version. The car I built was a Lotus 56B Offy with 4wd. I thought at least one of the Plymouths were 4wd also. The pic with the engine being installed is a Lotus. I will search for clearer copy Chris |
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Post by eagle36 on Nov 11, 2017 15:05:10 GMT -5
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